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  #541  
Old 04-09-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

I certainly don't have anything to lose. I just don't want to clog up the public thread if people have specific questions that may or may not be related to the topic at hand.


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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Doesn't Creationism state that the entire world was formed in a period of seven days including the entirety of Earth and all the animals within? If so, even if your argument point out a flaw in evolution, if doesn't support the fundamentalist view on Creationism.
This is a translation error. The original Hebrew text, yom, does not specifically mean one 24 hour period, as it does in English. Its meaning is closer to basically referring to any period of time. There are creationists who believe that the Earth was created in seven 24 hour days, but radiocarbon dating refutes this eveidence, as according to this 'New Earth' theory, the Earth would only be around 20,000-30,000 years old. However, 'Old Earth' theory, which assumes that radiocarbon dating more accurately identifies the age of the earth to be around 4.5 billion years old, is supported by the seven time periods. There is an astrophysicist, Dr. Hugh Ross, who has calculated the time of the seven time periods in accordance with the age of the earth. His books are very good to read, and I would encourage you to seek them out.


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Your posts are contradictory. In one you say that Microevolution undoubtedly occurs and then you refute the evolution of bacteria which is, to a certain extent, microevolution.

If by chance I did misunderstand your post and you are referring to the evolution of life itself, then I apologise and would like to rectify by stating that the theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life itself.
I was referring to the origin of life. The flagellum is what intelligent design theorists call an example of irreducible complexity. The flagellum can only function with the assistance of these proteins, which are so complex, they can't be simplified any further. The point of this eveidence is to show that a gradual change from proteins that have no reason to ract with one another can't come together to form something so irreducibly complex. In other words, it is impossible for there to have been non-living proto-bacterium without flagellum to have gained the use of these proteins by Darwinistic theory. It would have to have been created with these flagellum, and then gone forward from there.

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Give me evidence for these statements. A link detailing the discovery or something.
It was a book. I can't find it at the moment among my collection, but I'll pm you as soon as I find it.
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  #542  
Old 04-10-2009, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
This thread was made nearly six months ago. If you look back on the pages you'll see the questions Zach posed debated numerous times over but you will also see a lot of side-debates on evolution, homosexuality and even abortion if I remember correctly. Staying on-topic isn't an issue when the topic we are debating is an interesting one and one that is, in a way, related to the original debate.
They are different questions to Christians and they are to be answered. We don't want to end up debating about Darwinism and totally forget about the actual question.

It seems that you yourself have forgotten what the question is.

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I certainly don't have anything to lose. I just don't want to clog up the public thread if people have specific questions that may or may not be related to the topic at hand.
If you have arguments, state them all at one go, then. Besides, it may just answer their questions if they are asking something similar.

So what was the last question asked? Do you know?

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It was a book. I can't find it at the moment among my collection, but I'll pm you as soon as I find it.
Just let us know about the book too. :9
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  #543  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Grsspkmnmaster View Post
I certainly don't have anything to lose. I just don't want to clog up the public thread if people have specific questions that may or may not be related to the topic at hand.
You don't need to worry about that. We're here for a debate and we are going to debate.


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This is a translation error. The original Hebrew text, yom, does not specifically mean one 24 hour period, as it does in English. Its meaning is closer to basically referring to any period of time. There are creationists who believe that the Earth was created in seven 24 hour days, but radiocarbon dating refutes this eveidence, as according to this 'New Earth' theory, the Earth would only be around 20,000-30,000 years old. However, 'Old Earth' theory, which assumes that radiocarbon dating more accurately identifies the age of the earth to be around 4.5 billion years old, is supported by the seven time periods. There is an astrophysicist, Dr. Hugh Ross, who has calculated the time of the seven time periods in accordance with the age of the earth. His books are very good to read, and I would encourage you to seek them out.
So you're saying that the universe was formed first, at a certain period of time, and then accordingly Earth and the life on Earth followed after intervals and not together. It's a possible theory but not completely plausible until there is more evidence regarding the matter that doesn't include scripture itself.

Keep in mind that your argument is not strictly limited to Creationism itself. It could also mean that a couple of aliens came to our planet and created the new species that formed during the Cambrian.

Quote:
I was referring to the origin of life. The flagellum is what intelligent design theorists call an example of irreducible complexity. The flagellum can only function with the assistance of these proteins, which are so complex, they can't be simplified any further. The point of this eveidence is to show that a gradual change from proteins that have no reason to ract with one another can't come together to form something so irreducibly complex. In other words, it is impossible for there to have been non-living proto-bacterium without flagellum to have gained the use of these proteins by Darwinistic theory. It would have to have been created with these flagellum, and then gone forward from there.
Darwinistic theory has nothing to do with the origin of life itself. It's about the evolution of life. And there is plenty of evidence to support that. Fossils of animals dating back to 150 million years ago which bear resemblance to modern animals but with vast changes in anatomy, enough to consider them entirely different species. Archaeopteryx, which was one of the earliest birds, Asinotherium, a 35 million year old two-horned dinosaur. Even though you've provided us with proof that Humans did not evolve from Primates, you haven't verified it and there's definitely plenty of other evidence that supports Macroevolution.

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It was a book. I can't find it at the moment among my collection, but I'll pm you as soon as I find it.
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  #544  
Old 04-10-2009, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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So you're saying that the universe was formed first, at a certain period of time, and then accordingly Earth and the life on Earth followed after intervals and not together. It's a possible theory but not completely plausible until there is more evidence regarding the matter that doesn't include scripture itself.

Keep in mind that your argument is not strictly limited to Creationism itself. It could also mean that a couple of aliens came to our planet and created the new species that formed during the Cambrian.
Agreeable. And yes, that is what I am saying. I am referring to Creationsism, so I refer to the order announced in the Bible, but ideally, any form of intelligent design can follow this pattern. There is paleo-geological evidence that corresponds to Scripture.

1. "The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters."

The earliest rocks show that Earth was not an inhabitable place, and that the atmospheric conditions did not allow for sunlight to pass through the atmosphere. There was no life yet, not even the famously claimed 'primordial' soup.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day" and the darkness "night."

At a later point in time (millions of years) the gasses that thickly covered the Earth were changed to form most of the atmosphere we have today, which allowed sunlight to flow through the atmosphere on our cold, dark planet. The only thing that wasn't created yet was our section of the atmosphere, which could support life.

2. “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” 7 And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens. 8 God called the space “sky.”

Millioins of years after the atmosphere cleared up, the first weather starts to rear its head. The atmosphere which we live and breath in is formed, forming the sky which we identify with today. The first signs of wind exposure weathering appear in rock layers.

3. Then God said, “Let the waters beneath the sky flow together into one place, so dry ground may appear.” And that is what happened. 10 God called the dry ground “land” and the waters “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Behold, the rains have come, and as some geological evidence suggests, a very long rainstorm (another million year marker) comes and fills up the ocean basins which cover our planet today. The first oxidizing and rust ions are found in rocks conatining iron.

Then God said, “Let the land sprout with vegetation—every sort of seed-bearing plant, and trees that grow seed-bearing fruit. These seeds will then produce the kinds of plants and trees from which they came.” And that is what happened. 12 The land produced vegetation—all sorts of seed-bearing plants, and trees with seed-bearing fruit. Their seeds produced plants and trees of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.


With sunlight and water available, the first photosynthetic organisms begin to appear. The earliest plants are formed a few hundred thousand years after the oceans are filled. Plants are found, though at first onnly in small amounts, in rock layers.

4. Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them mark off the seasons, days, and years. 15 Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And that is what happened. 16 God made two great lights—the larger one to govern the day, and the smaller one to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set these lights in the sky to light the earth, 18 to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.


This one is tricky to explain. At first, we must assume that the Earth was not rotating along a tilted axis, which would account for the lack of seasons before. Now that occurs as something (God) sets the Earth on its axis. Also, around this time, most of the reactions that formed most of today's stars have been completed, and the stars are being seen for the first time, and the moon is now set in its orbit. The first tide marks appear in these rocks.

5. As for 5, 6, and 7, this is the creation of animal life, which is all represented by the appearance of fossils in explosive stages, such as the Cambrian Explosion which I have referenced to earlier, which created a lot of aquatic life.

Quote:
Darwinistic theory has nothing to do with the origin of life itself. It's about the evolution of life. And there is plenty of evidence to support that. Fossils of animals dating back to 150 million years ago which bear resemblance to modern animals but with vast changes in anatomy, enough to consider them entirely different species. Archaeopteryx, which was one of the earliest birds, Asinotherium, a 35 million year old two-horned dinosaur. Even though you've provided us with proof that Humans did not evolve from Primates, you haven't verified it and there's definitely plenty of other evidence that supports Macroevolution.
Finally, someone who understands that Darwinism does not claim to know the begginning, but the means to the end!

Even though you do have dinosaur fossils, there are far too many missing links that haven't been discovered yet to really generate solid fact. Though I admit that certain dinosaur-modern animal comparisons are striking, for example, Archaeopteryx, there is no fossil evidence beyond specific individuals which have been found to support macroevolution. You did mention that the vast anatomical differences are so distinct that each fossil is considered its own species. This is true, but in order for macroevolution to be proved by these fossils, you need to find an individual which is the cross between the ancient and the modern, which is not specific enough to have its own species, but specific enough it can't be a randomly mutated individual of wither species.

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  #545  
Old 04-10-2009, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

When push comes to shove, I've found that Darwin's theory that species develop from others through generational alterations in gene frequencies to be a little more convincing than the Genesis story. Even then, that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, does it? I mean, I've always thought of the Bible as a means to teach us how to live our lives. To quote my pastor, "We Christians live by faith, not by sight." Even if everything isn't factual word for word, which I personally would wish not to be so, isn't it better to live a good life based on Jesus's teaching than to live one not? I'm not trying to cause any controversies, just this was the way I've seen things for a while...
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  #546  
Old 04-20-2009, 04:15 AM
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Champagne...? I'm pretty sure there's no St. Champagne. Unless, of course, you're praying to the beverage. lol, jk.

And yes, that was probably part of it; saints are supposed to be models of virtuous lives on earth.
Well it was some saint that began with C-H- and it was pronounces like SH


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Hope this helps.
Also, for the discussion Alonso is having, the saints were appointed because (I believe) the transition from paganism to Christianity was hard for the Romans, and they still wanted to have "gods" over certain things. So the saints were "appointed" to that role.
But what do I know? That's the way I've heard it.
In other words, saints are present in christianity because they want to show non-christians that there are people that live good lives and we should follow in their footsteps.

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The way you put it makes it sound like Catholics attribute special powers to the saints. Again, we don't. Saints are supposed to be models of virtuous life (the term is heroic virtue, actually), and when they are canonized, they are sometimes named the 'patron saint of something' because of something that happened in their own life. It doesn't mean they have power over something. We believe that they simply have a special concern for certain objects, people, or ideals, so they are the ones we specifically ask to pray for us about those things. For example, St. Anthony is considered the patron saint of lost things. We believe that he will intercede on our behalf and pray to God with us.
What I was trying to say before.

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As a Christian, I should probably logically just take everything that the Bible says at face value. That God was always there, he created the world and sent his son to die for our sins, etc... And for the most part, I do.

But in addition, I do have theories. First, I know pretty much for a fact that there is a God in some form (at the very least, it's way more plausible than trying to explain evolution, if you really think about it logically). But I don't know if the Bible is correct in everything it says. Likewise, I don't know if the interpretation of it is exactly accurate.

Let me explain what I mean here. I'll use Heaven as an example. As the Bible puts it, his kingdom (Heaven) is not of this world. Ok. Now if you ask any typical Christian or Catholic where they think Heaven is, they say up above the world, usually they say in the sky. Now I'm not saying that pointing up is wrong when describing the location of Heaven. I agree that it is somewhere above us. But I don't think it's as simple as flying a plane into the clouds in search of some Angel Island (sorry, couldn't resist). If it were that simple, we would have found it years ago.

I do have a theory though, having seen just about every episode of Star Trek and Stargate SG1 and Atlantis. I think Heaven is literally not of this world, as in, I think God is an alien of some sort. Think about it. Given that he created a planet in 6 days, do you really think he could've done that if he didn't have some sort of extraterrestrial power? Not to mention seeing everything we're doing every second of every day. ESP? Telekenesis? Both typical powers given to aliens in any form of Sci-Fi. Water to wine? The transformation of objects? Q, anyone? I also don't think he's invisible. I just think we're looking in the wrong places.

Now that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. As I said, it's just a theory, and it doesn't mean you should stop being Christian or stop worshipping whichever version of God you worship. It's just a simple idea that I thought of between gaming sessions.
Most of what you said is wrong and that´s because you are taking the Bible literally. I dont think you should do that. Also, I think the Bible has errors because it was, after all, written by Humans. Humans are known to misinterpret things all the time. The sky is generally accepted as the place where heaven is because thats the place that no one had explored in old times. No one had been to the sky, no one had flying machines, so that is why we point to the sky; we didnt know what was beyond the blue so we just assumed it was above us.

What makes you think aliens have magical powers? Just because Sci-Fi gives aliens magical powers doesnt mean that they really have them. Aliens are just beings that are not of earth. Aliens may be animals from other planets that have the same limitations we have. God is just God. No extraterrestial powers involved. Just Him and His powers.

Thank you. Come again.
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  #547  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:53 PM
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Most of what you said is wrong and that´s because you are taking the Bible literally. I dont think you should do that. Also, I think the Bible has errors because it was, after all, written by Humans. Humans are known to misinterpret things all the time. The sky is generally accepted as the place where heaven is because thats the place that no one had explored in old times. No one had been to the sky, no one had flying machines, so that is why we point to the sky; we didnt know what was beyond the blue so we just assumed it was above us.



Thank you. Come again.
So how do you know the people who wrote the Bible didn't misinterpret natural occurrences and record them as religious stories?
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:33 AM
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So how do you know the people who wrote the Bible didn't misinterpret natural occurrences and record them as religious stories?
Are you referring to Moses and the Red Sea?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:15 AM
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Are you referring to Moses and the Red Sea?
I am referring to all of the Christian beliefs.

What if Christianity had the same objective as Greek Mythology, to explain the unexplainable?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:21 AM
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I am referring to all of the Christian beliefs.

What if Christianity had the same objective as Greek Mythology, to explain the unexplainable?
I don't know where you're going.

Isn't that what science does, explain the unexplainable?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:30 AM
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I don't know where you're going.

Isn't that what science does, explain the unexplainable?
Ah, let me rephrase. Let me use for example, the Egyptians. They, like many other peoples, used different stories to explain natural occurrences that they could not explain with science. Let's look at the sunrise. Their sun god, Horus, was said to defeat Set, the god of the underworld in the morning. This was to symbolize the sunrise.

Now, what if Christians saw things that they did not have a scientific explanation for, and created mythological stories to explain and personify these things. What if these stories were just exaggerations of real events?
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:16 AM
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Ah, let me rephrase. Let me use for example, the Egyptians. They, like many other peoples, used different stories to explain natural occurrences that they could not explain with science. Let's look at the sunrise. Their sun god, Horus, was said to defeat Set, the god of the underworld in the morning. This was to symbolize the sunrise.

Now, what if Christians saw things that they did not have a scientific explanation for, and created mythological stories to explain and personify these things. What if these stories were just exaggerations of real events?
I see. I think the way you're going is that there is no God. My point of view is that God exists. Only we Christians have misinterpreted Him many times and made many mistakes over time and that is why there are many divisions in Christianity today.

What you are saying is true though. Once humans were no longer busy chasing their food, the thought of religion came into the world and they began to try to explain the unexplainable.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:08 PM
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You know, historically speaking, writing wasn't a common thing back in the times of the Old Testiment or even the time when the records of Jesus's life were made, so people wrote things as they saw them happen, be they supernatural in origin or not. While we can explain things through rationality now, this wasn't something that was possible back in the Bible days. But, whether or not the events chronicled in the scriptures is fact or fiction, we really can't tell. That's why we Christians accept this on faith. Didn't anyone read what I wrote?
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:13 PM
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I see. I think the way you're going is that there is no God. My point of view is that God exists. Only we Christians have misinterpreted Him many times and made many mistakes over time and that is why there are many divisions in Christianity today.

What you are saying is true though. Once humans were no longer busy chasing their food, the thought of religion came into the world and they began to try to explain the unexplainable.
I never said there was no God, I am merely asking questions.

How do you know that God and Jesus, etc aren't all personifications of nature, etc?

And how do you know that your interpretation is correct and that everyone is wrong?

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Originally Posted by Apollo the Incinermyn View Post
You know, historically speaking, writing wasn't a common thing back in the times of the Old Testiment or even the time when the records of Jesus's life were made, so people wrote things as they saw them happen, be they supernatural in origin or not. While we can explain things through rationality now, this wasn't something that was possible back in the Bible days. But, whether or not the events chronicled in the scriptures is fact or fiction, we really can't tell. That's why we Christians accept this on faith. Didn't anyone read what I wrote?
Here's the thing, people say that God is real because the Bible says so, and they say the Bible is true because God says so. Not saying you think like that, but it's very irrational, and when people say Christianity is a fact based on that reasoning, it bothers me.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:17 PM
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I see. I think the way you're going is that there is no God. My point of view is that God exists. Only we Christians have misinterpreted Him many times and made many mistakes over time and that is why there are many divisions in Christianity today.

What you are saying is true though. Once humans were no longer busy chasing their food, the thought of religion came into the world and they began to try to explain the unexplainable.
You do realize that God and the whole christian religion is a rip off of past religions correct? What makes those other religions wrong and christianity right?
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