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  #31  
Old 04-05-2009, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
My response and question to all of those people is thus: How do you know? As an agnostic, I ask that question of people a lot, but always silently or without expecting an answer. Now I do. I'm asking everyone who is convinced that it is a fact that their religion is true, not just believing it but thinking they actually know, how do you know?
What I'd like to know is: Does it matter? Attempting to explain something like that would be similar to describing blue to a blind person.

As you've said here, they think they know. And that in itself has an identical definition of simply believing - having faith.

It can't be proven; no one knows.
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  #32  
Old 04-05-2009, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by EmBreon View Post
What I'd like to know is: Does it matter? Attempting to explain something like that would be similar to describing blue to a blind person.

As you've said here, they think they know. And that in itself has an identical definition of simply believing - having faith.

It can't be proven; no one knows.
Then allow me to rephrase. I'm asking why they think they know as opposed to recognizing that it is a belief and not a fact.
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  #33  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by EmBreon View Post
What I'd like to know is: Does it matter? Attempting to explain something like that would be similar to describing blue to a blind person.

As you've said here, they think they know. And that in itself has an identical definition of simply believing - having faith.

It can't be proven; no one knows.
But blue is real. Some can see it.
Just because some don't, doAlso,es that mean it doesn't exist?

Also, @ Khajmer: I could possibly take you to Narnia or show you a dragon.
Is there any solid proof that they don't exist? Maybe there's a wardrobe somewhere. Or maybe the dragons have fled to a very secret underground facility.
The universe is not always as it seems...
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Last edited by Dragon_Master; 04-05-2009 at 01:09 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Then allow me to rephrase. I'm asking why they think they know as opposed to recognizing that it is a belief and not a fact.
That's how powerful early "learning" of a religion can be. Kids are unable to tell fact from belief, and thus treat it as though it is fact. This gets carried through onto adulthood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
But blue is real. Some can see it.
Just because some don't, doAlso,es that mean it doesn't exist?
You're missing the point entirely. It's not the point of whether or not blue exists, but rather that it is impossible to ascertain that blue exists if one don't have the tools to see it. This is the same as religion in that context. If one has no faith in a particular religion, it would be impossible to convince that person because that person doesn't have the tools to gain faith in that religion.

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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
Also, @ Khajmer: I could possibly take you to Narnia or show you a dragon.
Is there any solid proof that they don't exist? Maybe there's a wardrobe somewhere. Or maybe the dragons have fled to a very secret underground facility.
The universe is not always as it seems...
This answer does not fundamentally answer Khajmer's question at all.

The first here is that if you can, then do so. To convince a skeptic, show them. Remember Doubting Thomas? One can't put faith on the existence of dragons, after all, because there really isn't a part of the world we haven't explored yet, outside the bed of the ocean (and even then we've gone through some points of the bed of the ocean already). A wardrobe existing requires our world to be linked through interdimensional portals to another world, which is quite a bit of a stretch as well. Never mind the fact that Narnia is fiction...

Your final statement backfires on you terribly, considering that you just opened yourself to the possibility that you are completely wrong in religion as well, because the universe isn't as it seems.
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  #35  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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The reason why some people are totally convinced is that they had something drastic or they had some personal experience that made them convinced that it's true. Like they talked to God, had their prays answered, etc. you know stuff like that. That's my opinion.

Now what made me convinced that my religion is true? Well, I was raised in a religious family all my life, so I was constantly told that this religion was the right one. So it was there the whole time. But what made totally convinced was a dramatic event that happen in my life, and it just changed my total view on Christianity. You can say it was a smack to the face.

You can say that I "think" I know which I would agree, but once you have that experience, you would truly understand what we mean when we say "I think <insert belief here> is true".
You pray to God that you pass a test. You pass said test.

Suddenly Evolution is a conspiracy and homosexuals are evil.
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
You pray to God that you pass a test. You pass said test.

Suddenly Evolution is a conspiracy and homosexuals are evil.
This statement might be relevant if we were practicing exaggerations of stereotypes...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Then allow me to rephrase. I'm asking why they think they know as opposed to recognizing that it is a belief and not a fact.
I understand what you're asking; simply recomposing the same sentence doesn't change the question. :P If they didn't think their religion was fact, would they even follow it in the first place?

If these people you're referring to thought their faith was just a simple theory, they would not believe in it at all. They think it is fact because they believe it is true.
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  #37  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

However, Emma.

For something to be fact, isn't there a need for proof?
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  #38  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by PainKiller View Post
However, Emma.

For something to be fact, isn't there a need for proof?
Yes? This isn't a debate as to whether or not religion is fact, but rather why those who believe it is, think so.
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  #39  
Old 04-05-2009, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
That's how powerful early "learning" of a religion can be. Kids are unable to tell fact from belief, and thus treat it as though it is fact. This gets carried through onto adulthood.



You're missing the point entirely. It's not the point of whether or not blue exists, but rather that it is impossible to ascertain that blue exists if one don't have the tools to see it. This is the same as religion in that context. If one has no faith in a particular religion, it would be impossible to convince that person because that person doesn't have the tools to gain faith in that religion.



This answer does not fundamentally answer Khajmer's question at all.

The first here is that if you can, then do so. To convince a skeptic, show them. Remember Doubting Thomas? One can't put faith on the existence of dragons, after all, because there really isn't a part of the world we haven't explored yet, outside the bed of the ocean (and even then we've gone through some points of the bed of the ocean already). A wardrobe existing requires our world to be linked through interdimensional portals to another world, which is quite a bit of a stretch as well. Never mind the fact that Narnia is fiction...

Your final statement backfires on you terribly, considering that you just opened yourself to the possibility that you are completely wrong in religion as well, because the universe isn't as it seems.
Yeah...I'll probabley just shut up now. I'm a terrible debater...
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2009, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Then allow me to rephrase. I'm asking why they think they know as opposed to recognizing that it is a belief and not a fact.
The answer, at the root of things, (for Christianity, in the least) lies in the nature of the belief itself.

The Bible claims to both be the complete word of God and possess no fallacy. The Bible states that it is fact, and those who believe in the Bible and God, by default, must believe that their beliefs are fact.

It's the nature of belief, I suppose, to be contradictory and emotional in and of itself.



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  #41  
Old 04-17-2009, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

People talk about how they don't NEED tangible proof, and that they don't NEED to know for sure that God exists, they just do.

Then they usually turn it around on me and say, "You need proof, see, I don't need proof. I just know."

According to those people, that's what faith is, believing in something that you cannot see, etc.

Well my response to this is simple. I don't understand why people need proof for EVERYTHING ELSE, except religion. The only reason you believe, say, the Bible, is because you've been raised on that. I say that it's BAD to not need proof, because if you don't need proof for something, how do you know that it's not true? It's simple common sense, and common sense gets thrown away when it comes to religion.
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Last edited by Disruption; 04-21-2009 at 01:17 AM.
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