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  #1  
Old 03-21-2009, 05:45 AM
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Default The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

First point, I'm not talking about all religious people. I'm simply referring to those who fall under this category, and the question I pose is to them and them alone.

I have no issues with religion, but there is one thing that bugs me, above all else. The idea of knowledge over faith. I don't mean as in generally, either, I'm referring to a personal level, where an individual doesn't only believe in a religious faith, but is so utterly convinced that they act and talk as if they know for a fact that their religion is true. And, as a matter of fact, some do indeed claim that their religion is fact.

My response and question to all of those people is thus: How do you know? As an agnostic, I ask that question of people a lot, but always silently or without expecting an answer. Now I do. I'm asking everyone who is convinced that it is a fact that their religion is true, not just believing it but thinking they actually know, how do you know?

Third time, just to make sure I get the message completely across, I'm not talking to people who simply believe in religion, I'm speaking directly to those who act like they know it for a fact.
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
First point, I'm not talking about all religious people. I'm simply referring to those who fall under this category, and the question I pose is to them and them alone.

I have no issues with religion, but there is one thing that bugs me, above all else. The idea of knowledge over faith. I don't mean as in generally, either, I'm referring to a personal level, where an individual doesn't only believe in a religious faith, but is so utterly convinced that they act and talk as if they know for a fact that their religion is true. And, as a matter of fact, some do indeed claim that their religion is fact.

My response and question to all of those people is thus: How do you know? As an agnostic, I ask that question of people a lot, but always silently or without expecting an answer. Now I do. I'm asking everyone who is convinced that it is a fact that their religion is true, not just believing it but thinking they actually know, how do you know?

Third time, just to make sure I get the message completely across, I'm not talking to people who simply believe in religion, I'm speaking directly to those who act like they know it for a fact.
The reason why some people are totally convinced is that they had something drastic or they had some personal experience that made them convinced that it's true. Like they talked to God, had their prays answered, etc. you know stuff like that. That's my opinion.

Now what made me convinced that my religion is true? Well, I was raised in a religious family all my life, so I was constantly told that this religion was the right one. So it was there the whole time. But what made totally convinced was a dramatic event that happen in my life, and it just changed my total view on Christianity. You can say it was a smack to the face.

You can say that I "think" I know which I would agree, but once you have that experience, you would truly understand what we mean when we say "I think <insert belief here> is true".
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2009, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

In my opinion, though Faith and Knowledge can be used to mean different things....both can also be interconnected.

For instance, having faith doesn't mean you're very religious. Faith dervived from knowledge- Example:

The cardiac surgeon has faith in his ability to save the patient.

Knowledge derived from faith: Logic, trial and error. Relying on purely statistics, trial and error's more of faith or confidence, than knowledge.

There's a different kind of faith too, I'll agree. Some people like to call it faith, others call it blind faith- there must be some valid reason after all, for people to have faith in something. What actually is annoying is...middle-men using religion and faith of people as a way to increase their own power/influence. And their determination to stick to their morals/beliefs, and give the people in their religion a bad name. Who can help it after all, though while the middle men potray its the people following them, the people actually follow the God of that religion, but people assume (knowingly or unknowingly) that its the middle-guys to blame.
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Old 03-24-2009, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

The way that I've always seen is is that someone can't portray their faith as 100% absolute fact, because the idea and definition of faith (again, from my view) is the belief in something without the need for absolute proof.

That said, faith going by that definition is something most people have in one way or another. Gravity as most people know it is only a theory, but one most people cling to steadfastly as the force that holds our feet to the ground. Isn't that faith even if it doesn't have religious connotations?
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Without getting into epistemology and other exciting philosophical discussions, it's easy enough to draw a generalized definition of knowledge as "justified true belief." I've always liked that definition because it tends to establish the idea of "knowledge" as something certain, as opposed to uncertain (see: ontology), and purposeful as opposed to accidental (see: Socrates and the slave boy).

Faith, then, is a belief. It can be justified, it can be unjustified--faith can be blind or it can be aware. But faith, in itself, is simply belief. It is a component of knowledge rather than the other way around--if one *knew* something with certitude, one wouldn't need to simply believe because one would also know that the belief was justified and true.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Fairy Sugar View Post
In my opinion, though Faith and Knowledge can be used to mean different things....both can also be interconnected.

For instance, having faith doesn't mean you're very religious. Faith dervived from knowledge- Example:

The cardiac surgeon has faith in his ability to save the patient.

Knowledge derived from faith: Logic, trial and error. Relying on purely statistics, trial and error's more of faith or confidence, than knowledge.

There's a different kind of faith too, I'll agree. Some people like to call it faith, others call it blind faith- there must be some valid reason after all, for people to have faith in something. What actually is annoying is...middle-men using religion and faith of people as a way to increase their own power/influence. And their determination to stick to their morals/beliefs, and give the people in their religion a bad name. Who can help it after all, though while the middle men potray its the people following them, the people actually follow the God of that religion, but people assume (knowingly or unknowingly) that its the middle-guys to blame.
Still, you can't deny that having faith and having knowledge is technically impossible. You can't believe in the postman's existence, because well, you know that the man exists. On the other hand, you have to believe that he will deliver your letters every day, and nothing will impede his duty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Away View Post
The way that I've always seen is is that someone can't portray their faith as 100% absolute fact, because the idea and definition of faith (again, from my view) is the belief in something without the need for absolute proof.

That said, faith going by that definition is something most people have in one way or another. Gravity as most people know it is only a theory, but one most people cling to steadfastly as the force that holds our feet to the ground. Isn't that faith even if it doesn't have religious connotations?
A theory has to be tested to the extent that there's no viable alternative before it can be accepted as a theory. Otherwise it would merely be a hypothesis. =D
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

The difference? Faith is believed, and knowledge is known. I believe it is good to believe, and never to know. God does not ask you to know he exists. To know something is to think about something tangible, or something in the material world. To believe something is to think about something intangible, or something outside the material world. And assuming something and to believe something are two different actions; assuming something is broken down by the following:

ASS|U|ME

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. ^^
(Usually - same with presuming)

God has no form, so therefore you have to believe he exists to go to heaven. Not to mention "works" as quoted in the Bible. Faith without works (proving your faith - walking the walk, not talking the talk), and thou shalt surely die.
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  #8  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Requiem of Verities View Post
The difference? Faith is believed, and knowledge is known. I believe it is good to believe, and never to know. God does not ask you to know he exists. To know something is to think about something tangible, or something in the material world. To believe something is to think about something intangible, or something outside the material world. And assuming something and to believe something are two different actions; assuming something is broken down by the following:

ASS|U|ME

When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. ^^
(Usually - same with presuming)


I agree. Which is why I find it odd that so many people think that they do in fact know, rather than just believe. I do, however, feel the urge to comment on something.

Quote:
God has no form, so therefore you have to believe he exists to go to heaven. Not to mention "works" as quoted in the Bible. Faith without works (proving your faith - walking the walk, not talking the talk), and thou shalt surely die.
First of all, just because God has no form doesn't mean you have to believe he exists to go to heaven. I don't see how the two are connected. Secondly, I don't believe that, period. I don't buy for a second that if there is a God, that he would send you to the pit or even limbo just for not believing in or worshiping him. Why would he do that, when he supposedly loves us all. What purpose, "mysterious ways" or not, would he have for banishing us to the pit just for not believing in him?
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
I agree. Which is why I find it odd that so many people think that they do in fact know, rather than just believe. I do, however, feel the urge to comment on something.



First of all, just because God has no form doesn't mean you have to believe he exists to go to heaven. I don't see how the two are connected. Secondly, I don't believe that, period. I don't buy for a second that if there is a God, that he would send you to the pit or even limbo just for not believing in or worshiping him. Why would he do that, when he supposedly loves us all. What purpose, "mysterious ways" or not, would he have for banishing us to the pit just for not believing in him?
That's where you're wrong. He doesn't love us all. He loves His people, and that is all.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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That's where you're wrong. He doesn't love us all. He loves His people, and that is all.
So God doesn't love all of his children? Because if he created all of us, that means we're all his children. And again, what makes you so sure that's how he feels? That's the impression that I'm talking about, the tone that makes it seem like you think you know God's will, and his emotions. Even if you don't, and that's just what you believe, guess what, that's how you sound.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
So God doesn't love all of his children? Because if he created all of us, that means we're all his children. And again, what makes you so sure that's how he feels? That's the impression that I'm talking about, the tone that makes it seem like you think you know God's will, and his emotions. Even if you don't, and that's just what you believe, guess what, that's how you sound.
Apparently you know His will, and you also think you can order Him around by telling Him that He has to love everyone.

Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Well in church I was taught God loved everyone equally, unless they did a mortal crime. (Or whatever they're called)
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Apparently you know His will, and you also think you can order Him around by telling Him that He has to love everyone.

Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
No, I'm saying that he should love all his children, just like I would say any other father should love his children. And I have never claimed to know his will. Where did I once say "this is what God thinks"? Oh, and for that matter, give me one line from the Bible where God says anything along the lines of "I love certain people and no one else", because clearly whatever copy they have in Ranma's church says no such thing.
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
First point, I'm not talking about all religious people. I'm simply referring to those who fall under this category, and the question I pose is to them and them alone.

I have no issues with religion, but there is one thing that bugs me, above all else. The idea of knowledge over faith. I don't mean as in generally, either, I'm referring to a personal level, where an individual doesn't only believe in a religious faith, but is so utterly convinced that they act and talk as if they know for a fact that their religion is true. And, as a matter of fact, some do indeed claim that their religion is fact.

My response and question to all of those people is thus: How do you know? As an agnostic, I ask that question of people a lot, but always silently or without expecting an answer. Now I do. I'm asking everyone who is convinced that it is a fact that their religion is true, not just believing it but thinking they actually know, how do you know?

Third time, just to make sure I get the message completely across, I'm not talking to people who simply believe in religion, I'm speaking directly to those who act like they know it for a fact.
Personally, I don't think any religion is true.

If we are to believe that God created the universe, and presumably all other universes, could he really be explained in a simple book? No, that is the simple answer, and is all that is needed.

God's work is so mysterious and complex that no mere mortal can ever hope to even think that he understands it. No religion is true, bibles are just books filled with pretty stories,.
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
No, I'm saying that he should love all his children, just like I would say any other father should love his children. And I have never claimed to know his will. Where did I once say "this is what God thinks"? Oh, and for that matter, give me one line from the Bible where God says anything along the lines of "I love certain people and no one else", because clearly whatever copy they have in Ranma's church says no such thing.
I already did. Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. Would you like more?

@Cipher: I love the tone of that post. It's as if you had a time machine and could go back in time to find out if the stories in the Bible are true or not.
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