Proposition 8

[Surly Professor]

I think one of the main hurdles of legalizing gay marriage is the tack used by it's supporters. The fundies seem to outnumber the sane people in this country, and attacking them as fundies does not help your position.

You have to talk to them in their language.
Something like:
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The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin. This is in both the old and new testaments. It also teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Which sin is greater? Biblically, a sin is a sin is a sin. Sin separates from God, regardless of its magnitude. Therefore, banning gay marriage is not lessening the Sin in America... it is doing nothing but showing intolerance for people with other beliefs.

Does not the gospel of Matthew tell us in chapter 9 vs 10-13:

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Jesus did not frown to them, or protest them. He brought them in by showing love, not hatred and condemnation.

But fine. You believe we should use laws to dictate moral behavior. But why do you believe this is so? Does not the Bible teach that it is by faith, not works that we are saved? How is dictating someones behavior effecting their salvation at all. You cannot change the world to bring people to God....you cannot bring people to God at all. The Holy Spirit brings people to God. No amount of your earthly work can effect another mans salvation.

The greatest gift God has given us is choice. The Holy Spirit does not force your hand. You are saved by your free will and choice to come to God. It is not up to you to make that choice for others. You would try to do God's job for Him? What hubris. Does not the scripture teach that we are "In the world not of the world"?

To a more practical matter. The idea of dictating law or policy to the "state" is frightening...and should be, even to believers. Currently, and for our short history, America is a primarily Christian nation. However, populations rise and fall. By setting the precedent that religion should be the backbone of our nation....how will future generations deal with a majority Muslim population? If we were majority Muslim would your logic therefore enact Sharia law?

I would rather leave the law to deal with secular matters, and the Church to deal with spiritual. When you combine the two, you taint both. The law cannot be equal to all if it is influence by the religion of just some. Likewise, when the power is given to the state, can it not lessen the impact purity of the religion? Shouldn't the focus of the church be saving souls....not dictating laws?
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[Vincent_Valentine_4]

You are right but we have tried using logic and it does nothing the people either don't take the time to read it or they are just simple minded people that get one thing in their head and wont listen to reason or anything else you have to say. You made very good points though hopefully some of the anti gays will take note of your speech.

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by zachattack

Chrisitianity won out California. Not conservatism.

I can't say I'm surprised. Religion right now does not get seperated from state.

Well, it's not like you can force people to forget their religious beliefs when they go to vote. As long as people still have those beliefs, there never will be a true separation. And I said it was conservatism because voting against gay rights seems to be a traditionally conservative thing to do.
-Jake-

[Jack of Clovers]

Originally Posted by Surly Professor

Shouldn't the focus of the church be saving souls....not dictating laws?
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At one point in the vast history of our planet, religion was the law. And as much as the American government try to remain separate, it just isn't.

Fake Death- You're really being disrespectful of another for the choice of lifestyle they made. You are free to dislike a certain personality, but not to go so far as to parade around and insult them for it. That's being rude to them, and to this discussion. Please show a little more decency.

I too am surprised that Prop 8 passed, but we move on. Perhaps the future will hold better values toward this issue.

~Jack~

[Teo]

It is my understanding that the lot of America voted yes on Proposition 8 due to the tax break that would be received if Gay's were legally married if it was thwarted. It doesn't really have anything to do with hating or loving gay people. It essentially goes back far before America was even formed. Far before the lot of things on this world really. To where only a man and woman are recognized as a union in God's eyes.

Now a days, the Bible still says it's a sin, yet the public at large isn't bothered so much by gay people being "Married" as it were. What people dislike is that they'd be getting the same treatment as straight couples. Which just isn't right to them. Essentially they seem like hypocrites, yet the world has always had discrimination. So it really isn't anything new. No matter what, the mass population of the world will always believe the union of a man and woman will always be greater than a man/man or woman/woman. Gay people have the same rights as anybody else in America, it's just when it comes to marriage in the countries eyes, they simply don't have the same rights as a man and woman do. This is because our country was founded on escaping Religious persecution. So in a way, we still keep some of the ties that bond us to the days of yore.

Thus, you have America's response to Prop 8. Despite us wanting things to be equal, the fact is things aren't ever going to be equal no matter how hard one tries. It's something one just has to learn to accept, and tolerate at the end of the day.

[Surly Professor]

Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers

At one point in the vast history of our planet, religion was the law. And as much as the American government try to remain separate, it just isn't.

Religion was also once inseparable from science. Things change.

I like the idea of separating legal marriage (civil unions) and marriage in a church. When a couple signs the forms at the court house, they became a legally recognized couple for the purposes of insurance, finances, inheritance, etc. When they exchanged vows at the church, they're married "in the eyes of God." If the homosexual community would focus on the legal aspects of a civil union, then I think more progress could be made. No legal union has to be recognized by a church. Conversely, no religious union is recognized by the state.

Originally Posted by Teo

Despite us wanting things to be equal, the fact is things aren't ever going to be equal no matter how hard one tries. It's something one just has to learn to accept, and tolerate at the end of the day.

I accept that times change, and nothing will stay the same forever.
Just think about how discriminatory our society was toward minority groups just a generation ago...
I believe this form of discrimination too will fall within a single generation: ours.

[MaskedJackal]

Originally Posted by zachattack

Chrisitianity won out California. Not conservatism.

I can't say I'm surprised. Religion right now does not get seperated from state.

So what you're saying is for the voters to abandon their religion to make you happy? no.

[ThEcHaMpIoNoFsApPhIrE]

CHRISTIANS RUL AND PAGANS.....have an awesome holiday but they still DROOL!

and we (the christians) have won the battle of the Gay-ness in California.
does this mean we will still have straight women and men on the beachs?

[zachattack]

Originally Posted by ThEcHaMpIoNoFsApPhIrE

CHRISTIANS RUL AND PAGANS.....have an awesome holiday but they still DROOL!

and we (the christians) have won the battle of the Gay-ness in California.
does this mean we will still have straight women and men on the beachs?

N-O says no.
The battle is lost but the war is far from over. If you think Gay rights and gay people are suddenly going to disappear from this, you are way off the mark.

Gay rights, 2012.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Wunschkind

So what you're saying is for the voters to abandon their religion to make you happy? no.

It is not that they should abandon their religion, but that they should apply their religion correctly and justly. Read Surly Professor's posts. He touches on the difference between sinning and supporting equal rights.

[ThEcHaMpIoNoFsApPhIrE]

Originally Posted by zachattack

N-O says no.
The battle is lost but the war is far from over. If you think Gay rights and gay people are suddenly going to disappear from this, you are way off the mark.

Gay rights, 2012.

never said they'd dissapear ^

[Matt]

This takes a little bit of the edge off:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...,5471913.story

[Seawolf]

I'm locking this before it gets too ugly.




Wild Megalodon used CRUNCH on thread! The thread fainted!

*Locked